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B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

Last post 08-20-2008, 3:55 PM by Scott Jones. 29 replies.
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  •  08-13-2008, 12:28 PM 16562

    B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

    In the FSX install of this aircraft, the filename simobjects is misspelled and the file goes into the wrong directory and cannot be found. The c and the t are reversed in the filename.



    WWA1702 Senior Command Captain +3
    RWP SEL Instrument Rating (almost)
    WW Test Pilot
    Monster Driver
  •  08-13-2008, 1:19 PM 16563 in reply to 16562

    Re: B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

    Mike,

    Bob did point this problem out here: http://flywestwind.com/communityserver/forums/thread/14457.aspx#14734



    Test Pilot

    50 Hours x6
    Green Monster x2
    P001
    October 2008 Screenshot Comp Winner

    VATID: 1040117
    Controller: UK Heathrow & Essex Region

  •  08-13-2008, 2:17 PM 16564 in reply to 16563

    Re: B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

    James WWA1984:

    Mike,

    Bob did point this problem out here: http://flywestwind.com/communityserver/forums/thread/14457.aspx#14734

    Unless I am misssing something, this is a different problem. There are 4 pages of posts and I didn't try to read them all. This is a simple spelling error on the directory name that causes the aircraft to be installed in the wrong directory. The fix is simple--copy the folder for the B727 to the appropriate spot in the SIMOBJECTS/aircraft folder.

    IMHO, we should fix this in the installer.

    Cheers.



    WWA1702 Senior Command Captain +3
    RWP SEL Instrument Rating (almost)
    WW Test Pilot
    Monster Driver
  •  08-14-2008, 1:08 AM 16586 in reply to 16564

    Re: B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

    It's the very last post on the first page, the link was ment to take you directly to the post but it looks like it didn't work for you.

    Anyway it says the following:

    I did the install this morning and discovered the problem.  In the installer, "SimObjects" is misspelled as "SimObjetcs". as a result a new folder by that name  was created.



    Test Pilot

    50 Hours x6
    Green Monster x2
    P001
    October 2008 Screenshot Comp Winner

    VATID: 1040117
    Controller: UK Heathrow & Essex Region

  •  08-14-2008, 6:15 AM 16589 in reply to 16586

    Re: B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

    OK. Thanks. Looks like they already know about it. Cheers.

    WWA1702 Senior Command Captain +3
    RWP SEL Instrument Rating (almost)
    WW Test Pilot
    Monster Driver
  •  08-14-2008, 6:55 AM 16592 in reply to 16589

    Re: B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

    No Problem Wink

    Test Pilot

    50 Hours x6
    Green Monster x2
    P001
    October 2008 Screenshot Comp Winner

    VATID: 1040117
    Controller: UK Heathrow & Essex Region

  •  08-14-2008, 3:18 PM 16605 in reply to 16592

    Re: B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

    I wish some more people would use this beast.I still think there is a huge fuel consumption issue with her.I went from DTW to SEA the other night and it took a full fuel load.Just seems theres an issue here.At FL330 im at full throttles half way threw the flight and only like at .68 Ma.I cant even think about a higher FL.anything higher and she wont gain any speed and usually loses speed.Its been like this every flight ive taken with this beast.Maybe its the way its suppose to be,im not sure. 

    Scott Jones
    WWA2062
    Assistant Hub Manager KJFK
    Sr.Capt
    Monster Driver
  •  08-14-2008, 3:40 PM 16606 in reply to 16605

    Re: B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

    What was you're weight Scott?  If you take off really heavy you'll probably need to stop at 280 for quite a while.  Although from your description something doesn't sound right.  In the real airplane if you could hold mach .80 with 87% N1, then you could think about climbing up another 4000 feet.  The other trick is to climb at 320 knots indicated until that intercepts .78, doing this will of course necessitate a rather shallow climb if you're heavy, but that's how the real airplane is.  The 727 was known for being able to go fast and land on "smaller" runways, it was never known for it's lackluster climb performance.

    My cruise table for FL330 with jt8d-15s shows an expected fuel flow at the optimum weight (165,000 for FL330) of 3205 lbs/hr/engine for .80M cruise.  I can't find the -17 tables right now and the 727 when I put it together for FS9 was -17 powered, I'm assuming that stayed the same for the FSX version.

    Maybe the engine parameters are screwed up, if I had FSX I could check it out..........when I get a chance I'll scan and send you the cruise power tables.  Maybe we need to work on this thing a little more........



    EHAM-YSSY B772LR
  •  08-14-2008, 5:35 PM 16608 in reply to 16606

    Re: B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

    Ok Kim,thnx for the responce.It might just be me being used to the newer type planes.maybe it just the way the 727-200F is.I have noticed that it does require a real shallow climb compared to other planes.

    Another thing is,when i start up FSX and pick the 727-200F its already over the gross weight of 210000 by 3349lbs.

    When i sign out on a flight it says to carry 54,469 lbs .With a full fuel load its saying im 217,418 lbs,7418 over the max gross of 210000lbs.

    So with all of that ide say a weight issue is start of the cause.With what dispatch here at WWA says to carry i can never leave with a full fuel loadout so miles are cut right there.I cant in good mind cut the weight on a flight to get the  weight down to get the fuel weight up and get credit for carrying the assigned weight.So maybe if dispatch was to drop the weight a few thousand on the flight the performance would come around a little as well?Im just stabbing here in hopes to find a cure for this awesome plane.It is truley my personel favorite in the fleet.

    Here are some FSX weights if it will help

    Empty weight =102,800lbs

    Fuel=60,149lbs

    payload =0

    = a gross weight of 162949 lbs

    Max gross weight of 210000lbs

    So if my math is some what right that gives a payload capacity of 47051 ish lbs?

    So when i sign out on a flight wanting me to take 54469 lbs im losing 7418 lbs in fuel due to cargo?Please feel free to correct me cause me and math dont get along,lol

     



    Scott Jones
    WWA2062
    Assistant Hub Manager KJFK
    Sr.Capt
    Monster Driver
  •  08-15-2008, 7:26 AM 16615 in reply to 16608

    Re: B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

    I will try to make a couple of test flights in her later today and give you my opinion.

    I flew it for the first time recently from Frankfurt to Amsterdam and return. I took off with full fuel. IIRC, I was near MTOW (Max Takeoff Weight). She climbed sluggishely to FL280 but it was about what I expected. I don't recall her being slow.

    On the return trip, I started out with about 30% fuel. She was doing 300 kts indicated at FL280. I don't recall the mach number but I would expect it to be about mach .76 based on experience with other aircraft. It seemed very normal to me. Fuel usage on the appx 1 hour flight seemed about right to me.

    My biggest difficulty with the B727-200F is that she wants to wander all over the RW on takeoff and landing. It is really difficult to keep her on the RW on takeoff much less straight with my sensitivity settings which work well with everything else I fly. This might be exacerbated by slow framerates in high scenery areas like Frankfurt and Amsterdam.

    I will keep you posted. I am currently enroute from Lome, Togo to Tunisia so will do the test flights later today.



    WWA1702 Senior Command Captain +3
    RWP SEL Instrument Rating (almost)
    WW Test Pilot
    Monster Driver
  •  08-15-2008, 7:43 AM 16616 in reply to 16608

    Re: B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

    I'm starting to get a picture here.

    102,800 pounds empty sounds like a passenger 727-200.  The freighters all weighed in around 91500 to ~94000 empty.  A max weight of 210,000 pounds was also available only on passenger airplanes iirc, and those had to be the "super" 727's with the JT8D-217 or -219 (MD-80 motors) in positions 1 and 3.  Fuel of 60,149 would normally only be available with an aux tank, not a big deal, but most freighters if they had an aux tank had them removed because it cut in to usable lower cargo space, and normally affected what your max zfw could be (interestingly I left the fs9 727 with about the same fuel amount).

    With all that being said these are the stats/weights that I published with the FS9 version of the airplane (and these weights came from an actual 727-200F with JT8D-17's that I flew):

    Engines: Pratt & Whitney JT8D-17

    TO Thrust: 16,000 lbs x 3

    Max Taxi:  195,500 lbs

    MaxTOW: 194,800 lbs

    MLW: 161,000 lbs

    ZFW: 152,000 lbs

    OEW: 94,300 lbs

    This yields an available payload of 57,700 pounds.  In my real world 727 flying we would almost never get to max payload, because we would bulk out the airplane first (physically run out of space).  The only time we would come close was at Christmas time, when the US Mail was shipping very full containers, then it wasn't unusual to be running around with minimum fuel for most of the trips, and we would sometimes have to leave mail behind if the weather necessitated more fuel. 

    With the above numbers, if you load it up to max you can only take 43,500 pounds of fuel off of the ramp. Keep in mind that the 727 is a short to medium range freighter and if you're going to fly a long distance you can't take a whole lot of freight with you.  It's the same old issue as most ga piston airplanes have, you can fill the seats or fill the tanks but not both.

    I'm curious what the turbine engine section of the aircraft.cfg says on the FSX bird....here is the FS9 version (and I got the static thrust number from the guy that did the fde, he was nice enough to publish what the FS9 value should be for the different engine variants available on the 727):

    [TurbineEngineData]
    fuel_flow_gain=0.0010
    inlet_area=8.9462
    rated_N2_rpm=12250.000
    static_thrust=15200.00  // This is set to Max continuous thrust, NOT max Thrust, DO NOT ADJUST.
    afterburner_available=0
    reverser_available=1
    bypass_ratio=1.07

    I tend to agree with you though that we are having a weight issue with the FSX airplane, and we may have a powerplant issue too as far as fuel burn is concerned.



    EHAM-YSSY B772LR
  •  08-15-2008, 7:52 AM 16617 in reply to 16616

    Re: B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

    Here is the turbine engine data section of the cfg for FSX.


    [TurbineEngineData]
    fuel_flow_gain=0.002
    inlet_area=9.852
    rated_N2_rpm=12250.000
    static_thrust=15200.000
    afterburner_available=0
    reverser_available=1



    WWA1702 Senior Command Captain +3
    RWP SEL Instrument Rating (almost)
    WW Test Pilot
    Monster Driver
  •  08-15-2008, 1:53 PM 16626 in reply to 16617

    Re: B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

    First off ,thnx Kim and Mike,i dont know what we would do without ya.

    Second,it sounds like its a sure weight issue.Should we get the dispatched weight reduced to a more friendly weight?And from what Kim is saying is maybe the cargo 727 a little to heavy empty as it is sits now.Should i go into the cfg. and reduce the empty weight?   Im coming up with like 11300lbs difference from what it is now to what Kim is saying it should be empty.That seems like a pretty good difference to me.

    Sorry to keep hounding you guys on this but i really like this aircraft and just want it to be a good as it can be.From what i have heard and read shes served the airlines greatly and ide like it to do the same for WWA



    Scott Jones
    WWA2062
    Assistant Hub Manager KJFK
    Sr.Capt
    Monster Driver
  •  08-15-2008, 2:57 PM 16636 in reply to 16626

    Re: B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

    Scott, give it a try, but backup the file before you change it.  You need to change 2 lines the empty_weight= line and the maximum_weight= line.  Hopefully changing the empty weight won't affect how the airplane handles...........


    EHAM-YSSY B772LR
  •  08-15-2008, 4:04 PM 16637 in reply to 16636

    Re: B727-200F (FSX) Bug Report

    Here is the flight report for the test flight as downloaded (no changes to the cfg file).

    Frankfurt - London

    Takeoff Gross Weight 183,460 (max is 210,000)
    50% fuel

    climb profile
    2500 fpm @ 310 kts to 15,000 ft
    1000 fpm @ 310 kts to FL260
    500 fpm @ to FL340 with final airspeed of 270 indicated (mach .79) and EPR 1.9
    GW 173,831 at FL340

    Climbed with throttles set to the top of the green arc on the EGT gauges until the N1 guagues reached the top of the green arc, then maintained N1 at TOG to FL340.

    Descended at 2500 fpm and throttles mostly at flight idle.

    Conclusion: She climbs really sluggishly but did get to FL340 at a pretty good weight. You can tell you are driving a truck and not a sports car.

     



    WWA1702 Senior Command Captain +3
    RWP SEL Instrument Rating (almost)
    WW Test Pilot
    Monster Driver
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